[oclug] The Sinnister MS Connection Was : Rogers domain oddn

[bbarnett at l8r.net]

On 04-Feb-2001 Jon Earle wrote:
> At 04:08 PM 02/03/01, you wrote:
> 
>>On 02-Feb-2001 Jon Earle wrote:
>> > On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Warren A. Layton wrote:
>> >
>> >> If consumers had expressed more concern
>> >> about air pollution levels we would have seen electric cars appear on
>> >> the market much sooner.
>> >
>> > And what would generate the massive amounts of power required to energize
>> > several million electric cars in Ontario alone?  You'd see several more
>> > coal, oil, gas and nuclear power plants popping up all over the place, and
>> > they'd just spew _their_ pollution into the air, ground, water,
>> > etc.  You'd just transfer the problem and concentrate the pollution.  Not
>> > sure which is worse.
>>
>>Erm.  Hydrogen powered cars *are* electric cars, and simply equiping a car 
>>with
>>solar panels on it will enable it to recharge itself.  Solar panels can be
>>designed into the hood, trunk and roof of the car and their appearance can
>>actually *add* to the look of the car, if designed correctly.
> 
> If those solar races are anything to go on, I'll pass, thank you very much 
> (that's not to say they aren't cool to watch!)  I've not yet seen a solar 
> cell I'd want on any car of mine.
> 
> We can't yet make an effective electric car, and by effective I mean, 
> something that will get me from Ottawa to Toronto, anytime of day, in most 
> weather and in at least the same amount of time.  The trouble with solar 
> power, is that we only have it half the day.  The other half will need 
> batteries to keep going, and if we have batteries anyway, then why add the 
> extra weight of solar cells?  I'd rather just pull up every 4-5hrs or so at 
> a service station for a quick-charge.  Trouble with that is, how many 
> people will be in line ahead?  It takes just a couple of minutes to gas 
> up.  It'd probably take at least 20-30minutes to quick-charge an electric 
> car.  I suppose you could equip each parking stall with a coin-op charger 
> outlet and hope that Timmy's has a _lot_ of fresh coffee.

I didn't mention anything about a battery powered car, just an electric car,
nor did I say the car would *run* off of solar panels.  I said it would
recharge from the solar panels.  This is the beauty of hydrogren power.  If
your car hasn't produced enough hydrogen from sitting in the sun, then go buy
some and refuel it that way.  Thing is, if you drive your car for 15 minutes to
work every day, and then leave it in the sun for 8 hours, and then drive it
home, you won't need to.  

Hydrogen power has made the electric car *very* viable.  Ford Canada will have
a Topaz out this year based on the Ballard fuel cell.  _THIS YEAR_.  The
PRESIDENT of Ford Canada specifically said that it will travel just as far
and fast as the standard Topaz.  No differences _at all_.  How's that for
viable?  FYI, Ballard fuel cells produce electricity from hydrogen, and are 93%
efficent at doing so (only 7% of the energy is lost in heat).  This is
_incredible_ compared to any other form of conversion.

 
> 
>>The fact that hydrogren powered electric cars are far, FAR, *FAR* more 
>>efficient
>>than a gasoline engine makes this possible.  The conversion rate of ballard
>>fuel cells (hydrogen -> electricity) has been claimed to be as high as 93%.
> 
> H powered vehicles are more likely to make BIG BOOMS.

Such statements show your lack of knowledge on the subject.  This isn't
horrible, and its understandable.  Don't let an accident that occured almost
100 years ago cloud your judgement.   Look at the facts first.  First off, have
you ever heard of propane powered cars?  Lots of them on the road.. every cab
around seems to be using it ;)

Secondly, there are ways to design fuel tanks for H2 that don't cause problems
if they are literally smashed to pieces.  Several issues of Discover (now
defunct :/) went on at length about these designs over 15 years ago.  One of
the favourites was a metal honeycombed design (to give you a good visual picture
of it) that's membranes would slowly release h2 at a controlled rate.  The only
way to begin to make explode (and its _very_ hard to make h2 explode, it
disipates so quickly into the air when released) was to rupture _all_ the small
 honeycombed areas at once.  Testing showed this to be virtually impossible.   

> 
>>Part of the reason its taken until this year for hydrogren powered cars to
>>hit
>>the market is because of market dynamics.
> 
> A bigger part is that we can't safely and practically contain and deliver 
> H... yet  The stuff is dangerous as hell!
> 

Its not any more dangerous than a tank of propane.  I guess you run from the
streets screaming and yelling when you see a propane truck go by, sputtering
and begging for your friends to join you in the bomb shelter.   I bet you were
down at the local gas station picketing for hours when they installed that
propane take for cars and bbq owners to refuel at.

Geez.  Give me a break man ;P


>>People will be able to refuel their
>>OWN cars, and Ballard hydrogen powered technology will effectively destroy
>>the
>>power base of the Middle East, and destroy anywhere that depends on oil as a
>>fuel source.
> 
> Oh for sure, and that is something I won't mind seeing at all.  That, and 
> watching all the big oil companies reduced to simply making 
> lubricants.  I'll be in line for Ballard cell equipped cars, once they get 
> the tech worked out, and assuming they're not going to price it out of 
> reach of average consumers.
> 

Well, this fall you'll see Ford release one.  The Prime Minister drove the
prototype around Parliment Hill about a year ago.  Honda just bought Ballard
fuel cells for testing, and BMW / VW etc have been a BIG investor since day
one, so I suspect you'll see their cars this year or next with them.

In short, in 5 years everyone will be driving them.  The beauty of it is that
no matter how you see the h2 being manufactured, pollution in the city will
drop dramatically.  I'm just worried about how humid the summers are going to
get ;)



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